“And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.”
King James Version (KJV)
Jema's comment on 2023-05-31 10:12:22:
Very well said David , thankyou so much , I agree with everything you said . From my own reading of the entire Bible , I have discovered that many things that Christians adhere to as doctrines , are not in fact Biblical . It's so very important , for anyone who wants to draw closer to the Only Great God Almighty , the Holy One of Israel , to start off with no preconceptions . Start at Genesis , read it all and then , read it all again and again and again for the rest of your life . The Bible is the most perfectly harmonious book , anyone who doesn't realise this hasn't read all of it often enough . Every single book is as valid as every other . Everything God does and says is in perfect harmony with everything else that He does and says . The problem is with us humans , coming to His Word with our own agendas and preconceptions . Many of my beliefs are things that I would never ever discuss on this site as I would probably be hounded off here . My faith in and love for my God and His Son grows stronger and stronger with every time that I read the entire Bible . May God bless us all with open hearts and minds and may He make us all His forever . God bless you David .
David0921's comment on 2023-05-31 08:56:37:
Hello again Mr. Spencer,
I understand your desire not to get into a discussion of Dispensationalism and how God deals with mankind, in particular the Nation of Israel throughout history, past present and future, in this thread. So I will respect that desire. I will just say this...
The fundamental question we all must face even before we start talking about "doctrine" is the nature of the Bible and how we are to go about interpreting it. I have tried to be very clear in many of my posts as to what i believe the Bible itself declares about this question. In its simplest terms it is the BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRITY is the ONLY WORD OF GOD. This means that God Himself is the AUTHOR of the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation. And that every word, every phrase, every passage, every historical event, every future event, is recorded in exactly the manner that God chose to record it. It means that if we want to correctly understand any doctrine in the Bible we must look at any and every passage in the entire Bible that relates to that doctrine. And until we have found HARMONY with all those verses and passage, we have not come to Truth. We are not comparing the writings of Paul with the writings of Peter or Jeremiah or Isaiah or any other human author when we do this; we are comparing in all cases the Word of God with the Word of God. And we can and should be looking to see how God uses a word of phrase in Jeremiah or Exodus with how He uses similar words and phrases in Mark or Romans or Revelations.
Furthermore, this means that the Bible is its OWN INTERPRETER, and the more we allow outside understandings or principals to influence our interpretation process the further from Truth we will be led. The Bible itself lays down the principals we are to use in Biblical interpretation. I've tried to lay those out in previous posts. I do not find the Historical-Grammatical method of interpretation, to pick on the most common, outlined anywhere in the Bible.
S Spencer's comment on 2023-05-31 06:49:04:
Hi again David.
I meant to say Sorry but I'm not wanting to turn what Gigi started a couple of years ago as a summary through the OT into a debate about when and where the Millennium exists.
God bless.
S Spencer's comment on 2023-05-31 06:44:57:
Hi David.
Sorry but I'm not wanting to turn what Gigi started a couple of years ago as a summary through the OT.
I'm emphasizing how God deals with them as a Nation as he do us today. ( With mercy for his name sake.) He will complete what he started! He's not a man where he lies or repent. This will be illustrated in Ch 23 vs 19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The fact that God decided to continue his promises with the next generation "kids 20 years and below" and continue to carry them on eagles wings in the wilderness emphasis he's committed to carrying on with his promises and dealing with them as a Nation as part of his redemption plan.
That's the same kind of display of commitment and faithfulness he has for his Church.
We're a stiff neck people as well who has the spirit INSIDE US! so we should be encouraged by God not abandoning Israel.
We should consider
Hebrews 10:29-31. and
Romans 11:18-20.
I've read and studied Hebrews 11 and interpret those verses perhaps slightly different than you and don't care to get into that on this thread.
However I will leave you with this, How they are to pray.
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done, AS IN HEAVEN, SO IN EARTH.
This haven't happened yet.
I'll be leaving this thread for now.
God bless.
David0921's comment on 2023-05-30 18:23:15:
Mr. Spencer,
I would encourage you to read Hebrews 11 very carefully.
The "Land" that was promised to Abraham is the New Heavens and New Earth which is the Promised Land for every True Believer.
Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Hebrews 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
S Spencer's comment on 2023-05-30 16:51:27:
You're welcome Gigi.
Look how God's longsuffering and everlasting mercy plays a role in the Nation!
Here's a few points that's often overlooked in this portion of scripture.
Israel was already given the law at this time, however the keeping of the law played no role in them entering the promise land.
Lack of faith did.
There were no requirements on their part but to trust in the unconditional promises God gave to Abraham.
It's God's reputation and ability to provide those promises was and still is on display.
As we look ahead into Ch 14 we see Moses making intercession for Israel by God's promises, "Not Israel's faithfulness"
Notice Numbers 14:11-16.
Today the Church has joined this group in their mockery of God's promises!
God could have ended it right there but he made Promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob "who's later named Israel" that he will make a nation out of them and they would inherit a Land that he laid out.
That's important because they have NEVER possessed all the Land. But they will!
Look at the means by which Moses petition God on the behalf of Israel in Numbers 14:17-
And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my LORD be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of THIS PEOPLE according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven THIS PEOPLE, from Egypt even until now.
The Nation of Israel is given mercy and inheritance as God's first born.
Exodus 4:22.
Isaiah 14:1-2.
Hosea 2:23.
According to Paul he's not done with them and the promises will be fulfilled to them as a Nation and first born.
Romans 10:19-21 through
Romans 11:1-4.
Conclusion.
Romans 11:30-32.
God bless.
GiGi's comment on 2023-05-30 08:47:04:
Thank you S. Spencer
Just to clarify, my last statement was referring to the generation of Israelites that had been delivered from Egypt. These people did not enter into the land because of their unbelief. They "blew it". However, their unbelief did not nullify God's promise to Abraham.
The Israelites who were younger than 20 at the time and who wandered in the wilderness with their unbelieving parents for 40 more years did enter the land promised and possessed in under the leadership of Joshua and Caleb.
The unbelief of the Israelites at the time of the sending out of the 12 spies did not thwart God's plan for the people of Abraham. He is able to fulfill His will in the lives of all people because He is sovereign over all. He knows all things past present and future. He works all things out according to His purpose.
S Spencer's comment on 2023-05-30 05:41:38:
Goodmorning Gigi.
Thanks for the provided summary on Israels failure to entering into the promise land.
I would like to share something based on your last statement.
( It is a very sad time for the people God had delivered from bondage. Though they were chosen as a people to receive great promises and benefits from being God's covenant people. They blew it royally at the time they were closest to entering in.)
When we look at Genesis 15:7-18 we learn that God covenant was unconditional, In fact Verse 18 shows us that God has already gave them the land.
vs 18) "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, UNTO THY SEED HAVE I GIVEN THIS LAND, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
They had to possess it by faith!
That's the lesson and example for all the world to see!
Also what's important to note is God's word is at stake. Moses makes mention of that later in scripture.
Israel couldn't enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews ch's 3 and 4 hammers away at this.
But notice Hebrews 4:7-9. Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
God bless
GiGi's comment on 2023-05-29 21:59:04:
NUMBERS CHAPTER 13
Continued...
Caleb believed God and that God would fulfill what He promised to the nation of Israel. Joshua, also, believed God as Caleb did. These two men had faith that could "move mountains". They were faithful servants to God and trustworthy leaders for Moses to depend on.
Even so, the nation decided to not go and take the land. They wavered in faith in YHWH to deliver them from the giants and the well fortified cities and warriors of the cities. They looked at the situation through the lens of practical analysis, determining that their nation was not strong enough to conquer and possess the land.
They failed to believe that the land would be given to them by supernatural means by the hand of YHWH and the strength that He would have given the people to destroy the peoples of the land as they went in to possess it. They counted the cost and calculated that they were no match for the giants and armies in the land. But God was desiring to show them His amazing power and favor by bringing down these giants and armies when the men of Israel moved forward in the might and protection of the Mighty One of Israel.
How disappointed Moses must have been at the failure of the spies to believe God for victory over the peoples of the land promised to them. But Caleb and Joshua proved that they were the ones who could lead this people, not the other 10 chiefs.
This decision of the people based on the negative report was very evil and costly to them. They forfeited their opportunity to enter the land but instead ended up dying in the wilderness. (everyone from the age of 20 and older never entered the promised land. Only Caleb and Joshua did so of the generation that left Egypt that was 20 years old or more.
It is a very sad time for the people God had delivered from bondage. Though they were chosen as a people to receive great promises and benefits from being God's covenant people. They blew it royally at the time they were closest to entering in.
GiGi's comment on 2023-05-29 21:44:43:
NUMBERS CHAPTER 13
In this chapter, Moses sends twelve men to be spies to check out the land promised to this nation. Each man was a leader/chief of their tribe, one who was respected and determined to be trustworthy.
These men went up into the land. At Hebron they saw the three sons of Anak who were giants in stature and strength. The spies noted that the cities were well fortified and able to defend against an attack.
They also collected food samples to bring back to the camp to show the fruitfulness of the land (as God had promised it to be). They stayed in the land for forty days, getting much information to bring back to the people in the camp.
The Israelites were camped just south of the border of Canaan. They were still in the wilderness area. They could not see the promised land from where they were camped. Perhaps there was a range of hills to block their view.
The men returned to camp and gave a mixed report to the people saying that the land was indeed fruitful and desirable for farming and raising livestock and for dwelling. But 10 of the men spoke negatively about the strength and stature of some of the inhabitants. They spoke words of doubt concerning their ability to take the land since God was with them and had delivered them miraculously since leaving Egypt.
The people had just celebrated a year of travel in the wilderness and camping at Mt. Sinai. Now they were as close as they could get to stepping into the land promised. But the report of the giants in the land and the fortifications of the cities caused the people to decide not to enter the land. They believed the report of men instead of the Word of God that promised them this land. The people were wishy washy about their trust and commitment to YHWH. This event tested their faith and they failed this test.
Caleb spoke up telling the people that they would be able to take the land from the inhabitants because God had promised the land to them.
Anthony Perez Bost's comment on 2013-12-14 13:06:18:
When you learn loyalty to god in Christ Jesus and put him first and acknowledge him and all your affairs. Theirs nothing but new abundant life favor and godly provision for us to witness his love truth and covenant in loving sinful man unto repentance to glory in his image praise hisname