“Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”
King James Version (KJV)
Adam's comment on 2022-07-30 19:49:36:
I'd like to share 2 thoughts on predestination:
1. Regarding John 10:36 "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" if you look at the context Jesus is talking only about his sheep. The sheep are His followers, or, Christians. Not everyone is a sheep. They are choosing to follow Jesus and choosing to believe and choosing be sheep by their own freewill and decisions. We know this because of what it says just prior to that. John 10:25-27. In v26 he says they are NOT His sheep because they don't believe. So, if we combine this verse with Matthew 7:13-14 one can presume that most are NOT sheep. Many most are wolves and some are wolves in sheep's clothing. Matthew 7:15.
2. Jeremiah 29:11 "I know the thoughts" or "plans" and hope for a "future" some translations say. Just because an all-knowing God can know this doesn't automatically mean its robbing you of freewill. You are not an automatic robot following a specific script. God is big and powerful enough to know everything and also let us have freewill at the same time, even if little human brains have a hard time comprehending it. God is much bigger than our assumed limitations. God is also big enough to change His mind, as happened relating to Sodom and Gomorrah.
Maybe God's plan is just a broad overview of what would be best for you, maybe like a map, but its up to you whether you follow it or not. Maybe you take a few detours along the way, maybe you get confused and even go the wrong way at times. This doesn't automatically mean you are following God's plan. Maybe you're not following Him at all. I think if you ask most people who believe in predestination, they generally admit that when they ordered a chicken sandwich for lunch and held the pickles that it was mostly their choice and not necessarily God's plan. Or when a Christian sins 1 John 1:8, I don't think most people actually believe that God causes people to sin. God forbids us to tempt or lead others to stumble in sin: Luke 17:1-4.
God bless.
Predestination's comment on 2022-07-27 02:30:16:
I'm probably not going to answer this Biblically enough. If you have a destination in mind_you buy a ticket and go stand on the train platform for boarding.
If we wait to do something or respond; until "we feel like it", the moment can completely pass by us.
No one is guaranteed tomorrow. Best to move on it when it today. " Today if you hear My Voice"
Jesse's comment on 2022-07-26 20:32:19:
Dave,
John 10:29 is not talking about predestination and predestination has nothing to do with God choosing who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. John 10:29 is showing the permanency of salvation to those who are presently saved.
Giannis's comment on 2022-07-26 18:07:56:
Dear Dave
Predestination in the sense that God knows who is going to accept Jesus' sacrifice and be saved and predestined them for eternal life, then yes this is right. But predestination in the sense that God planned beforehand whom He is going to save and act accordingly, then no this is wrong. If the latter was true then God wouldn't be righteous. Love, Truth and Righteousness is God's nature. God will not condemn people for what they would or wouldn't have done bur for what they do or don't. The verse you state from John means that nobody can take us from God, as long as we stay on the right path. Interpretation of verses must always be done in accordance to all other verses that are related to the same topic.
Predestination, like .secured salvation no matter what, in my opinion are wrong beliefs.
GBU
Dave's comment on 2022-07-26 08:42:01:
Do you believe in Predestination? That "we've already been chosen"? I find it hard to follow this path of thought. I mean what if I'm not? This is from John 10:29 NKJV "My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand."
However, if you read the KJV you can maybe interpret this differently. "My Father, which gave THEM ME, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
Ron's comment on 2021-03-31 11:41:57:
Adam, I know we do not agree, but these are the verses that leaped out to me and is the reason I believe the trinity divides.
1 John 2:22-24 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
In these two verses, it is the Son and the Father just like all through the scriptures they are the Son and the Father. And now the Son is on the right-hand side of the Father. When Jesus returns the Father will tell the Son when to come for the Father is the only one who knows that day.
God exists as three persons but is one being, having a single divine nature. The members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal, one in essence, nature, power, action, and will.
With all sincerity I feel if I confess the above trinity, I am denying the Son, saying the Son is God, who is by scripture the Father. I do not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
You do not have to reply I just felt you should know the reason I do not believe the trinity.
May the Lord be with you, Ron
D. W.'s comment on 2021-03-31 09:44:11:
The word is so helpful and true, and everyday it will help me and you.
Richard in Christ's comment on 2021-03-31 09:40:04:
The sheep are being separated from the goats, the wheat from the tares. Keep steadfast in your faith my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Matthew 13:37-43 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
S Spencer's comment on 2021-03-30 20:55:20:
Thanks, Amen Adam.
Jesse's comment on 2021-03-30 19:07:03:
Chris,
Also, we can look at Philippians 2:6 which says, Who (Referring to Jesus), being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2 Corinthians 4:4 says, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
There is a word in the Greek text that can be defined as the out beam, or radiance of God's glory. It is the word APOUGASMA. It is a word used to describe Christ, being the out beam of God's glory.
I like to imagine shining a flashlight on a wall in a pitch-black room. The light I see on the wall is Christ. But if I were to take that same flashlight and point it at my eyes, its brightness would be so great that it would blind me. Thus, our image of the Divine Glory of God is enlightened and more vivid by the beauty of the scriptures!
I believe what the inspired writer of Hebrews wanted his readers to draw is apparent and fitting. Christ is the "effulgence" of God's glory (Hebrews 1:3) because as the Word, He became flesh so that the grace and truth of God's glory could be seen by all (John 1:14,17-18).
Jesus is the true light that radiates forth prevailing over all shades of darkness (John 1:5). Just as no one can stare directly into the beam of the flashlight or spotlight without being blinded by the extreme brightness, in like manner, none can see the Father because of His Divine Glory.
But, as the light of the flashlight shines forth from the bulb revealing its essence, Jesus shines forth as the visible manifestation by which the knowledge of the glory of God is declared to all (John 1:14,18; 2 Corinthians 4:6). For he who sees Jesus beholds the Father! (John 12:45; 14:9,10).
Thanks Chris!
Adam's comment on 2021-03-30 18:58:50:
Dear Ron, I only see one post by you in this thread and it sounds like you're referring to another thread, so it's unclear what conversation you're referring to or what you believe on the subject being discussed. You suggested that I'm closed off. Actually I've been quite open to get others' opinion on this subject of Jesus's divinity which the Bible is black and white on. But after hearing a variety of arguments, reading, and praying about it, it's clear that satan is working overtime to deceive Christians into doubting the Bible. It's almost unbelievable to witness how some can just completely disregard certain verses because it's inconvenient to them, so they reinterpret it to suit their needs. The devil loves seeing someone doubt and develop cracks in their foundation which then grow and become crevases and canyons. Some here have even admitted they not only don't believe other parts of the Bible either. That's really sad and sickening to hear this.
John 1:1 - if someone doesn't believe this verse then they are refusing to believe part of the Bible, part of God's Word. It's so simple even 4 year olds can understand it. It's clear what it means and it's cute to read the mental gymnastics some attempt to twist it into something else, but nope, it means exactly what it says, even if you prefer it to not say it. I must ask, what's the real reason for people denying Christ and denying His divinity? Does it take faith for that... or the opposite of faith? Is such doubt from God... or from the opposite of God?
You said this is defended. Yes, the truth should be defended. Jesus should be defended. Anyone who considers himself a Christian should follow Christ and defend Him, and defend the truth in love. God bless.
Chris's comment on 2021-03-30 16:26:09:
And Jesse, just to add a portion of Scripture that I often refer to (& to which bro. Adam has recently & correctly highlighted in another comment), is 1 John 4:1-3:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
To affirm & confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is NOT simply a belief that there was an historical Jesus on Earth Who went about doing good & speaking the Words of God - even the devils know that fact (an abundance of references exist showing Jesus dealing with them). But to confess that this Jesus had a pre-existence (to which we now know that He was vitally & inseparably connected to the Godhead from Eternity to Eternity, known as the Word of God (John 1:1 & Revelation 19:13)), has "in due time" (God's appointed time) appeared to mankind from God to be given flesh & be called the Son of God & to lay down His Life for sinners.
Any departure from this great Truth was the overwhelming burden on the Apostle John's heart as he had the constant battle before him to warn & protect the children of God from the intrusions of Gnosticism into the Church. And particularly an offshoot of it (Docetism) which taught "that the incarnation was incredible (unbelievable, false), because Deity cannot unite itself with anything material, such as a body". How sad that Christians even today are gripped with that false belief & proclaiming that God, by sending out His Word, could not have assumed a body of flesh (the incarnation). John tells us that the spirit of antichrist was alive & well then as we even see it today.
Ron's comment on 2021-03-30 14:59:08:
Dear Adam, you did not say you were addressing me but if you were not please dismiss this. I am not aware anywhere in my post denying Jesus is Lord. Jesus is our Lord and Savior. I have not denied the divinity of Christ. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and was begotten before the world. No one on earth can say how that came to be. Jesus gave up the glory he had and came in the flesh to be sacrificed for our sins. God placed Jesus above every name in heaven or earth and only in His name is salvation. Jesus is the only mediator between us and the Father. He is the High priest that went in once with his own blood and anointed the Most Holy not made with hands.
Jesus is King of Kings, He is Lord of Lords He is the Lamb of God He is my Redeemer Christ is the first fruits. Jesus sits on the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. He will reign until he puts all enemies under his feet. How much more divine can that be.
I am sorry if I can not find any scripture that the trinity has anything to do with salvation and if not, it has no effect on being a Christian, causing the denying the divinity of Jesus. I see no reason to tell the definitions of your other post, it would not make you any less upset. With all due respect, I see no reason to discuss this anymore. This subject is so dogmatically defended with no room to discuss. There's more I could say but your words are clear the door is closed. As far as I'm concerned this discussion is over. sorry Ron
Jesse's comment on 2021-03-30 14:04:26:
S Spencer, what a great verse, Isaiah 9:6 which speaks of Jesus being the child, and being called among many other things not listed in this verse "The mighty God." I also recall that after Jesus' resurrection, when He appeared to Thomas, and Thomas said to Him, "My Lord, and my God." Notice that Jesus never corrected Thomas for calling Him God?
There are many places in scripture where Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews understood fully well who Jesus was claiming to be. To the Jewish mind, claiming to be the Son of God was the same as being God. Isn't this why they accused Him of blasphemy, making Himself equal to God?
Thank you so much for sharing Isaiah 9:6!!!
Adam's comment on 2021-03-30 13:08:06:
Amen. People have to do serious mental gymnastics to twist scripture to mean something else. The Bible literally says Jesus is Lord, but some are now claiming Jesus isn't Lord. This sounds awfully familiar, like satan saying Ye shall "not" surely die. The great deceiver always tries to convince people of the opposite, tries to undermine the deity of Christ and tries to diminish, undervalue, erode morals and values. He's busy at work even with Christians and gets them to repeat the lies without even verifying it or praying to God first and asking if that's really the truth. The lies shall be exposed with the bright light of scripture that even young children can understand.
S Spencer The trinity where you don39t expect to find it's comment on 2021-03-30 12:31:49:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
God is used here in the plural form.
"" El-o-heem ""
Hebrew:
Transliteration: 'lhym
Pronunciation: el-o-heem'
Definition: Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural {thus} especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - {angels} X {exceeding} God (gods) ({-dess} {-ly}) X (very) {great} {judges} X mighty.
KJV Usage: God(2,346x), god(244x), judge(5x), GOD(1x), goddess(2x), great(2x), mighty(2x), angels(1x), exceeding(1x), God-ward(withH4136)(1x), godly(1x).
Occurs: 2606.
Jesus me and the father are one.
Jesus said you've seen me you seen the father.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
If the Roman Catholic taught that, I agree with them! because It's in the Bible and need no Interpretation, It's clear.
And I'm not Catholic.
but we search the scripture to see if these things are so,
The Holyspirit reveals truth,
Jesus said "I tell you the truth, I lie not.
He's still doing it! you have to go to great lengths to make it say anything else.
Read the bible's comment on 2021-03-30 02:32:56:
John 10 . 36
The Pharisees Where going to stone Jesus for Blasphemy, being a man and making himself God according to the Pharisees understanding.
But Jesus corrected the Pharisees, he said he was THE SON OF GOD . Not GOD . The spirit of error can not understand the difference just like the Pharisees.
Richard in Christ's comment on 2020-10-30 13:49:26:
No problem. As Adam left you a link to a page. When you are in the KJV 1611 section, click up at top of this page, use the index finder to the right. When you put in the book and chapter you want to look at. Then click the red arrow. It will come up in text. Scroll down a little and you will see the picture of the page to the right. Click on it and your in. Click on it again and it gets even bigger. Have fun!
Adam's comment on 2020-10-30 12:17:57:
Hi Mike,
The 1611 KJV is literally from 1611 A.D. the very first printing of it and it shows the actual scans of it, so you can compare and figure out anything that has changed. Of course the meaning hasn't changed, but the English language has actually changed a lot in 400 years, so it the KJV was adjusted to match the current language.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Genesis-Chapter-1_Original-1611-KJV/
You can do a parallel view of each chapter to see the differences:
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/genesis-1-parallel-kjv-1611/
Mike's comment on 2020-10-30 12:00:08:
Thank you again for your reply, you said you have every page photographed. I am having trouble finding these page photos. I found images of the bible but how do I look up 1st peter kjv page photos for and example?